Wednesday, December 26, 2012

Starting Strength vs StrongLifts 5x5

Dave Tate describes progression in fitness (and indeed, anything) to go in 4 generic stages:

1. Shit
2. Suck
3. Good
4. Great

Starting Strength and StrongLifts 5x5 are both novice barbell programs built around major compound lifts with simple progression and a clear scheme to get you from shit to suck. The two programs are different but very similar, using most of the same exercises in a similar order, on a 3-day-a-week full-body rotation of two alternating workouts with linear progression. For some reason, the great similarities between the two programs seem to spark a lot of aggression online over the relatively minor differences, and thus the tyrade of arguments from people who, if they had the experience to warrant debating such topics would also have the experience to know that they're making mountains out of mollhills, commences.

Let's have a look at both programs.

Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe with Lon Kilgore

Starting Strength is both a program and a book, which is now in its 3rd edition. I've only read the 1st and 2nd editions, so I'm not sure what modifications have been made in the latest edition, although I've heard that there's now a change in technique to the press, and the addition of pull ups after a couple weeks in the 3rd edition. If you've got a copy of the 3rd edition, you can correct me on that, or give further details, if you feel so inclined. But here's the program as of 2nd edition:

Day A

Squats 3x5
Bench Press 3x5
Deadlift 1x5

Day B

Squats 3x5
Press 3x5
Power Clean 5x3

You train a total of 3 days per week, adding weight to the working sets every session, so long as you got all your target reps with good form. The first time you perform each lift, with the help of a coach, you'll begin with the empty barbell for sets of 5 and add weight until you find your initial working weight, which is whenever the bar speed slows or it looks like any further weight increases will cause technique to break down. This might mean squatting 50kg, benching 40kg and deadlifting 60kg on your first session (just random numbers, don't treat these numbers as a recommendation). You'll also add weight each session according to how much you can safely progress by. For a lot of people, this means adding 5kg/session onto squats for the first fortnight, and up to 10kg/session onto deadlifts for the same period. As you get stronger and more skilled at the lifts, your ability to progress will decrease, and so 5kg jumps will become 2.5kg jumps, and 2.5kg jumps will become 1kg jumps (if possible -- you'll need smaller plates than most gyms provide to do this), etc. Eventually, you'll start missing reps. That means, you might be aiming for the prescribed 3x5, but instead only get 5/4/3 or 4/4/4 or some other combination that isn't 5/5/5. If this happens, you won't add any weight in the next session. Instead, you'll use the same weight, trying to get the extra reps. If you fail to get all your reps 3 sessions in a row, you'll decrease the weight by 10% and work back up. Once you've stalled and deloaded 2-3 times on the squat, it's probably time to move onto more advanced programming.

StrongLifts 5x5 by Mehdi

The first thing you'll notice about the StrongLifts 5x5 report, in contrast to the Starting Strength books, is that it's free. Unfortunately, the saying "you get what you pay for" rings with an element of truth here, as a great volume of the report is Mehdi selling his system, rather than teaching you how to lift. In contrast, in Starting Strength, Rippetoe goes to great lengths to talk about the individual lifts -- what muscles they develop, how to do them, common errors with corrections, how to warm up and even trivia about the lifts (all with a lot of photos and diagrams so that you can literally see what he's talking about). The StrongLifts 5x5 report gives less instruction and more sales. But, that's the e-book. Let's look at the actual program.

Day A

Squats 5x5
Bench Press 5x5
Row 5x5

Day B

Squats 5x5
Press 5x5
Deadlift 1x5

Unlike Starting Strength, StrongLifts does not involve the lifter spending time on the first session ramping up the weights to figure out a starting weight. Instead, the starting weight is purely and simply as little as the lifter can get away with. This means the empty barbell (20kg/45lb) for squats, bench press and press, and slightly more on the row and deadlift (officially 65lb and 95lb respectively, which is roughly 30kg and 40kg...personally I'd go lighter on the rows, especially if you have access to super-light 45cm plates at 2.5kg and 5kg, however most healthy young males probably won't have any problems with the 40kg deadlift, assuming they can learn appropriate technique). So, the starting weights are usually going to be lighter than in Starting Strength. The progression is also slower on StrongLifts 5x5, adding just 2.5kg/workout from day 1, with the goal of hitting a 225lb squat for 5x5 after 12 weeks. The working sets for squats, bench press and press are all 5x5 instead of 3x5, so there's an extra 2 sets in there, and 5x3 power cleans are replaced with 5x5 rows.

So then, which is better?

Frankly, it's an either/or situation. There are pros and cons to both these programs. Personally, I don't think either of them has enough upper back work to balance out all the bench pressing and overhead pressing, although the 5x5 rows rows of StrongLifts will do more to balance out the pushing than any amount of power cleans ever will. If you want to be good at power cleans, obviously a program that actually includes them will be better for that purpose than one that doesn't. When you're starting out, you want to do as many good reps as possible without wrecking yourself. I think doing 25 working reps (5x5) of most exercises at far too light a weight provides that potential more than 15 total working reps (3x5), however Starting Strength allows you to potentially start with heavier weights and progress more rapidly. It's also easier to recover from only 3 working sets than from 5, given an equal load, so once you've learned technique, Starting Strength may become preferable over StrongLifts 5x5. Instruction-wise, the Starting Strength books trump the StrongLifts resources many times over, in my opinion. Starting Strength provides one whole chapter per each of its 5 lifts. StrongLifts 5x5 only offers links at the back of the report to 1-pagers on the 5 lifts. Basically, if I were training a rank novice who doesn't need to have power cleans (or an equivalent movement) in their program, I'd prefer to start them on something like StrongLifts 5x5 but with the coaching of Starting Strength, and then back off the volume when the weights get hard (to something that more closely resembles Starting Strength, anyway). If I were training someone who needs to learn power cleans, I'm not sure I'd put them on Starting Strength for it, unless they're something like a rugby player. No matter who the person is, if I were training them they'd have more upper body pulling relative to upper body pushing than either of these programs provide, because I like people to not have dodgy shoulders. Whatever the case, both of these programs are for beginners to learn basic lifts on, and if you're a beginner, you just have to show up and consistently go through the motions in order to get results, so, as I indicated earlier on, getting into a heated argument over this is just plain silliness.

22 comments:

  1. What upper body lifts would you add to SS?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Thanks for the question, Catherine.

      I should give the premise here that once you change a program (in our case, adding in some upper body exercises to balance out all the pushing), it's no longer the program. If you listen to some of Mark Rippetoe's fans, you should expect to make zero progress whatsoever by changing anything. Of course, even Rip himself isn't /that/ overly zealous about his programs, but if you make the adjustments that I recommend, you're not officially doing SS anymore. Anyway...

      I think every generic program should involve some sort of vertical pull and horizontal pull, which translates to chin ups, pull ups or lat pull downs, and a row. Pick whatever variation is available and works best for you -- I personally find that the barbell rows described in the assistance exercises chapter of SS 2nd ed do nothing for my lats and scapular retractors, and I prefer seated cable rows because I can get them to work the muscles that I'm targeting. You may have to experiment a little to find what works for you, but just as you alternate between a horizontal and vertical push (the bench press and the press) each day, my recommendation is that you alternate between a horizontal and vertical pull each day.

      Delete
  2. Hi Ryan would you recommend Pendlay rows as a valid assistance exercise for the upper body?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. If you can do them productively, yes. For one reason or another, when I do them, my lower back (which is strengthened by Pendlays because you have to hold posture in a mechanically weak position) and hamstrings (which are put on a tight stretch during Pendlay rows, or at least they are when you're as stiff as me) give out before my middle traps, lower traps, rhomboids, rear delts and lats have even started working. So, in my own training, I don't do Pendlay rows, because I don't personally find them very effective for the job they're their for. However, if you get a good upper back/rear shoulder workout from them, then definitely use them. I think people get too caught up in details sometimes, worrying about which kind of row they should do based on what someone else tells them to do: "Rip and Pendlay say to do barbell rows dead from the floor," "but Yates does rows almost standing," "but Wendler does high rep DB rows," "but Ryan does seated cable rows." I don't like telling people to experiment with their training, because a lot of people seem to take that as a licence to go full retard, but you probably won't know what kinds of row work well for you until you give several variations a try. Pendlay rows might be great for you, in which case, I'd recommend doing them.

      Delete
  3. "If I were training someone who needs to learn power cleans, I'm not sure I'd put them on Starting Strength for it, unless they're something like a rugby player."
    Power cleans as part of Starting Strength are good for all novices, not just rugby players. :) Or is there another popular novice lifting program involving power cleans that you would recommend?

    On the subject of SS/SL/power cleans:
    In my experience of being in the gym and talking to other novices (working up from being a novice myself), by and large hardly anyone knows about SS/SL,. They mainly do whatever they just read in FHM/Men's Health, or they make it up as they go along from what they feel like in the moment. And those that do know about SS/SL almost entirely just go for SL. Why? SL has an OK looking website with simple bullet points, and for SS you should really buy the book.

    Generally novices think they're driven about wanting to learn how to get stronger with free weights, when they're really not. The attitude is more like, "Read a chapter in a BOOK about how to power clean? lol I don't read, reading is for losers." :sadpanda:

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. I think if you're going to focus on power cleans, it would be better to do a program that actually scaffolds the coordination, speed and strength to develop specific competence in olympic style weightlifting, rather than simply having them in a program that otherwise has no focus on that style of lifting. In an ideal situation, this would mean having an olympic weightlifting coach assess you and design a personalised program for you. I'm tempted to say "even as a beginner," but perhaps better phrasing would be "especially as a beginner." Failing that, I hear good things about Greg Everett's books, although I've never read them, so can't give a solid recommendation one way or another. I've also found some of the stuff in here (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4378183) really good, and it does scaffold the skills and abilities required for that style of lifting, however it isn't personalised.

      I wouldn't say that power cleans are good for all novices. In fact, having worked primarily with general populations who lack the kinesthetic awareness to distinguish their arse from a hole in the ground, my experience has been that the majority of novices should probably stay away from power cleans for quite a while. Nonetheless, my point was that SS isn't a great program for power cleans, not that power cleans shouldn't be in the program (or in any novice program, for that matter).

      Since I make a point of not wasting my money on fitness magazines (although I reserve the right to begin wasting my money at any given moment), I couldn't rationally compare SS/SL to FHM/Men's Health, but unless you have really good understanding of anatomy and sports physiology, it's safe to say that any plan is better than no plan or making it up as you go. Since I can't compare SS to Men's Health, all I can really assert is that it's very likely that both routes have their pros and cons.

      Delete
  4. Is there another option for vertical pulls other than chin-ups or pull-ups? I feel like I'm just going through the motions and not getting results. I think my chin-up bar is a little to low in my apartment, but I have no where else to put it. If if relax, my feet touch the floor. Also the reps are damn hard while I'm doing them, but I've never been sore the next day after a chin-up. Is there anything else I can do that will work the back just as effectively?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Nika,

      The alternative to chin ups and pull ups is the lat pull down, which cops a lot of slack on the internet, but is honestly a great exercise if you focus on technique. If you have an adjustable pulley machine, you can also set the handle/s up to various heights and get movements which are somewhere between a lat pull down and a row, which can work the back quite nicely.

      Delete
  5. Hi, I'm 16 and I play rugby for my high school team. Due to my rugby background starting strength interests me but could I also do chin ups/pull ups as an assistance exercise because of the lack of Upper back exercises?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Yes, and I'd recommend that you do. Back when I did the program, I did pull ups every bench day and rows every OHP day.

      Delete
    2. Plus adding dips, barbell curls and skull crushers on days when I have 2 rest days after the workout? Or is that too much,, but I have a good base from bodyweight exercises

      Delete
    3. It probably isn't too much total workload/volume, however it is leaning back towards being chest/anterior deltoid/triceps dominant. Some face pulls to offset the dips would work if you wanted to try that.

      If you're going to add in all those extras, I'd probably go the full hog and include a bunch of calf work, too (depending, of course, on how your calves compare to the rest of you). It's not good to be a tonne of meat above the knees and chicken-legs below the knees.

      Delete
    4. Taking that into consideration, what would the program look like, if you don't mind me asking. Plus thanks cause this will help me a lot become a better athlete physically

      Delete
    5. Day A: Squat 3x5, Bench Press 3x5, Deadlifts 1x5, Calf Raise 2-3x8-20. I alternate every set of BP with pull ups these days; back then I did 1 set of pull ups before the first set of every exercise and at the very end of the workout.

      Day B: Squat 3x5, OHP 3x5 (superset with rows for sets of 5-15), PC 5x3.

      Last workout of the week: Superset dips with face pulls, 1-3 sets, 1-10 reps for dips and 8-20 reps for face pulls; Superset curls with skullcrushers, 20-100 total reps each across 1-3 sets (yes, that means you can do 1x100 if you've got it in you).

      When it comes to adding extra exercises, try to minimise the added workout duration that comes with them, because once the weights get heavy, the main lifts each day will take upwards of an hour to get through (combined, that is -- if it's taking that long per exercise, you're resting way too long). Thus supersets or even circuits are a great way to apply them. On the isolation exercises, you might also choose to do things like drop sets so that you can work the muscles hard in a very short time period.

      Delete
    6. Thanks for giving me some of your time, you've been a great help. I'll be sure to update you these coming weeks and months,I'll be able to crush my opponents this coming April in the U19 tournament, especially since I'm recovering from bunion surgery, Btw I think the calf raises will be a problem but I'll push through, from. Kenya Denzel. We should trade emails

      Delete
  6. I am doing a modified version of Strong Lifts. First off I am doing 3x5 Deadlifts. I will drop to 1x5 when the weight gets high enough. I have added 3x5 Deadlift to Monday of week 1 and 5x5 Bench Press to Monday of week 2 and 5x5 Barbell Row to Friday of week 2. My goal was to complete 2 workouts of each Bench Press, Deadlifts, and Barbell Rows each week.

    After reading more about the Starting Strength program, I will be lowering all 5x5 to 3x5 as I get closer to an appropriate weight. For squats that will likely be now as that is an exercise I am quite new to. I did not start out with just the bar as that was far to easy for me. I am currently doing Dead Lift 170, Bench Press 170, Squat 155, Barbell Row 145, and Overhead Press of 110.

    Do you think my squat will gain better with 3x5 instead of the 5x5? Most people seem to think it will. I just had a cold so I didnt raise the weight on any exercise until my workout yesterday.

    Anyhow, please give me your opinion on the modifications I have made and if you think it is a good or a bad idea.

    Thanks,

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Hi Norm,

      It's hard to say for sure whether you'd be better off with more or less sets of squats. On the one hand, 3 sets is easier to recover from. On the other hand, 5 sets is a greater stimulus. As a general rule, more is better until it isn't, and you won't know when it isn't until you get there. My personal inclination would be to wait until your squats have surpassed your bench press before dialing back their volume, but without being there with you when you train, I'm using a lot of guess-work to reach that recommendation.

      As for 3x5 deadlift, I endorse this. 1x5's work for a while, but ultimately more sets will make most people stronger.

      Beyond that, all sounds good.

      Delete
    2. Thanks for the quick reply. So far I am feeling recovered before each workout and do not feel overly tired. I will stick with it and see how my progress goes.

      Delete
    3. I did not mention but, I am also doing 3x5 pull ups varried grip on each set and dips each with weight attached to my belt on the days when i only have 3 exercises to do. I think i read it from this blog that one problem both Strong Lifts and Starting Strength have is not enough pulls to match the amount of presses. I have also been doing the same with dips.

      Delete
    4. Yeah, the balance between pushing and pulling in both SS and SL5x5 is a bit lackluster. Realistically, you want at least one set of pulling for every set of pushing. Bench, OHP and dips are all pushes; pull ups and rows are pulls. I would consider something like this to keep the balance:

      - For every bench press set, do a row set.
      - For every OHP set, do a pull up set.
      - For every dip set, do a face pull, lat pull down or cable row set.

      On assistance exercises, you might also want to consider higher reps. Face pulls, lat pull downs and cable rows in particular lend themselves well to 8+ rep sets without being the big strain on technique that SS and SL5x5 are so concerned about.

      Delete
    5. Hi Ryan, I had trouble for the first time with Barbell Rows and was thinking about moving it ahead of Bench Press in the order of exersise so my arms arent as tired. My Bench is at 190 5x5 right now but Barbell Row is only at 155. I just figured i should worry more about balancing out the back then working on my strong point first. I also might move Barbell Rows ahead of Overhead Press on the days they coincide. Can you see any reason to not make these changes?

      Thanks,

      Delete
    6. You can if you want to. I'd note, though, that I've rarely met anyone whose row was equal to (or heavier than) their bench press, and every time I've seen it, it's been because their rows lived in cheat city. 190:155 sounds perfectly normal to me.

      Delete

For reasons that are beyond me, I like to hear what people think, so please leave a comment and let's work together to trick random passers-by into thinking this blog is actually popular.